Dining across the divide: ‘I’m not saying Israel is without its flaws, but if we’re talking about the current conflict, you need to talk about Hamas’

3 hours ago 2

Marco, 34, London

Occupation Public servant

Voting record Prefers not to say

Amuse bouche Seven years ago, Marco co-founded Na’amod, a movement of British Jews “seeking to end our community’s support for apartheid and occupation, and to mobilise it in the struggle for dignity, freedom and democracy for all Palestinians and Israelis”

Shari, 41, London

Occupation Freelance writer and children’s book editor

Voting record Conservative

Amuse bouche When Shari was about 10, she was flown around the stage of a Paul McKenna gig, in front of an audience that had been hypnotised. They thought she really could fly and were terrified

For starters

Marco Shari was kind and gentle. I was pleasantly surprised at her curiosity.

Shari Marco was really nice, quite laid-back and softly spoken.

Marco I ate a tuna steak and then I had a chocolate cake. I don’t often go to kosher restaurants.

Shari We shared a meze starter but were talking so much we didn’t finish it.

A man and a woman sitting across a table in a restaurant, talking

The big beef

Marco I grew up in Brussels, steeped in the Jewish community. Loving Israel and being a Zionist was a core part of my identity. I spent a year in Israel after high school, living in one of the kibbutzim close to the border with Gaza. I knew some of the people who were murdered on 7 October. My views have shifted, and I have become convinced that safety for both Jews and Palestinians is contingent on giving freedom to everyone.

Shari My view on Gaza is that it’s a war. The word “genocide” is inflammatory. The war began because of Hamas’s actions on 7 October, and they could have ended it at any point by giving up the hostages and surrendering. Much of the pro-Palestine movement doesn’t do anything to actively help Palestinians. It’s just about hating Israel.

Marco Some things she told me were distressing – how one of her boys was harassed as he was wearing a kippah skullcap. I understood her fears about that. A big part of my evolution has been to challenge the fact that my upbringing was about dehumanising Palestinians; and, in many ways, racist against Arabs and Muslims. Her response was: “No one I know is racist against Muslims.” It felt like the weirdest sentence. You grow up with it. It’s at the root of defending Israel’s actions.

Shari My upbringing has not at all been about dehumanising Palestinians or not liking Muslims. Marco kept circling back to how Israel must be held accountable. I’m not saying Israel is without its flaws, but I said: “Why does no similar pressure have to be put on Hamas’s leaders?” He never mentioned the word “Hamas”. If we’re talking about the current conflict, you need to talk about Hamas.

Sharing plate

Marco Jews residing outside Israel really care about liberal democracy and rights for minorities, because it safeguards their rights. At the same time our communal institutions defend a country that is a Jewish supremacy, which gives more rights to the Jewish majority and fewer rights to minorities. I think she did recognise that this is strange.

Shari I don’t believe Israel is a “Jewish supremacy” so I did not acknowledge that point. However, the discussion about how Israel has unique laws that are not the same as British laws, was definitely thought-provoking.

For afters

Marco She alluded to her view that anti-Zionism is indivisible from antisemitism. But she didn’t directly say: “I think you’re antisemitic”, because she would have known that would have made no sense.

Shari He said Zionism isn’t an intrinsic part of Judaism. I disagreed with that. Our connection to the land is the basis of our religion and our history. People who oppose Zionism distort its true meaning – which is simply that Jews have a right to self-determine in their indigenous land.

Takeaways

Marco I was interested to hear her experiences, but I didn’t learn anything new about the facts on the ground. I would love to continue the conversation.

Shari He presented a lot of his opinions as facts, but, even so, I like hearing other people’s opinions. We parted on good terms.