Dining across the divide: ‘A 31-month sentence for the Tory councillor’s wife seems a bit harsh’

3 hours ago 1

Andrew, 49, Leeds

Occupation Electrician

Voting record Labour for many years. He didn’t vote for Brexit, but voted Conservative in 2019 to “just get it done and let all the crap happen”. He has voted Green because of climate change, and most recently for Reform

Amuse bouche His hobby is paragliding. A few hours before meeting Oliver he was flying over the Yorkshire Dales

Oliver, 39, Leeds

Occupation English-language examiner and Labour councillor

Voting record Labour

Amuse bouche He was hit by lightning when he was a toddler, indoors, standing by a metal sink. Unsurprisingly, he doesn’t remember it

For starters

Andrew It was nerve-racking, like a blind date. You don’t want to appear to be the arsehole, but you do want to get your point across. I had two veggie bao buns to start, and a tomato linguine. We shared a fruity bottle of white wine, and had coffee afterwards.

Oliver I arrived feeling curious. I had a bread and olives platter and a poke salad, and we had a potato rosti on the side. A carb overload!

Andrew and Oliver sit at a restaurant table, chatting

The big beef

Andrew Our disagreement on immigration concerned the small boats. We agreed that one of the drivers of immigration is the need for low-paid workers to do jobs that people don’t want to do. You can pay £2,000 a week for dementia care, and yet the person looking after the patient is paid the minimum wage. It’s easier for corporations to lobby for higher levels of immigration than pay a fair wage.

Oliver People can feel undercut if unscrupulous employers basically use people as cheap labour. Andrew wasn’t blaming individuals. He could see why people would do it. But, equally, I can absolutely see why somebody who’s working in a lower-paid job or who’s got a particular trade can feel undercut.

Andrew My point was: why don’t people use the legal routes? I didn’t realise that, even when someone does apply through a legal asylum process, it can take five years to get settled in the new country. Some of the situations people are in mean they’re going to be dead in about a year. So I don’t blame them for coming over that way. I’d do the same.

Oliver Immigration and refugee protection systems, nationally and internationally, are struggling to keep up with criminal gangs, which have identified a clear demand and make vast amounts of money.

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Andrew making a point at a restaurant table

Sharing plate

Andrew I have concerns about the treatment of women and gay people in Muslim-majority countries – it’s completely out of kilter with how we do it. Before meeting Oliver, I assumed that if you’re found out to be gay in Saudi, you die.

Oliver I think Andrew would want to see more Muslim figures publicly stating their support for LGBTQ+ rights. As a gay man who has worked for five years in Saudi Arabia and for three years in Kurdistan, Iraq, I feel that it’s more nuanced. It depends on the particular community – there’s no such thing as one Muslim ideology, just as there’s no such thing as one Christian ideology.

For afters

Oliver We talked about Lucy Connolly, the Tory councillor’s wife who was jailed for calling for asylum seekers’ hotels to be set on fire after the Southport killings. What she wrote was horrific, and caused real terror to people inside hotels, who had already had pretty traumatic experiences. There should be consequences for things that people post online, if it incites harm or hatred against people.

Andrew A sentence of 31 months seems a bit harsh. I’m not saying she’s innocent; she deleted her tweet after four hours and it had a quarter of a million views. But they’ve not left themselves any wiggle room. Kneecap allegedly said “Kill your local MP” during a show, and MPs have been killed in the past – they didn’t face charges, but should they then have been given 31 months?

Oliver reacting to something Andrew’s said at a restaurant table

Takeaways

Andrew The biggest thing I’ll take away is that the legal route to claim asylum doesn’t work. I hadn’t appreciated how long it takes and how difficult it is.

Oliver It’s really important to have respectful conversations with people with different perspectives – and to listen to the emotion and the experience behind their opinions, not simply jump to a conclusion about what kind of person holds it.